|
Author
|
Topic: what we've learned about anti
|
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 08:41 AM
  
Here is some of what we know so far:George is an anti-polygraph apologist (pseudo-researcher), who will find fault with anything in support of the polygraph. He values "civility" (a buzzword of his?), politeness, and manners. However, he may not know how to respond to politeness, because he's formulated his major posture to perceived personal infractions. George is hypersensitive and interpersonally reactive to insult - traits common to alcoholic/addicts, and cluster B personality disorders like narcissism, borderline, APD, and histrionic. His level of focus suggests his form of pathology is probably personality, not addiction, driven. George tolerates little insult well, but retaliates to what he perceives as personal insult or personal infraction. He is not thick-skinned. He does not let things roll off his back like water off a duck. He holds grudges - for a long time. It might be wise to assume that George we continue to retaliate with his form of aggression, to whatever he perceives as a personal insult. George is a psychologically wounded individual, who will not steer himself around from simple direct confrontation or even good-spirited hassling. George presents as more humorless than Bible. (sorry Barry, but you gotta admit: aside from the cruel joke about Adam and Eve and the apple, there is just not much humor in the good book.) George is a grown adult, who will not outgrow this problem he's having. He's here for life, to be a thorn in our side. Its and existential thing for him. It gives him both identity and meaning. Without us to hate, he is a nobody and a nothing. The best way to manage him might be to simply be polite, let him babble, stick to the facts when necessary, avoid personally insulting him, and most of all, avoid responding to him as if he matters. That's tough for some of us. It might be interesting to see what he'd do if we ceased interacting with him completely, and responded only to the other users at anti. George has recently indicated that Gino is not a pseudonym. Gino, is less patient than George and more overtly aggressive. He probably doesn't hold a grudge as long. He probably tires of the anti-poly-folly more quickly, and looses interest in discussion after his one-note song about hard and soft science. Gino enjoys himself more than George, and will even taunt people in retort. Just look at his huge "Who's the rat?" question, which he posted twice - in part for his own enjoyment. The "who talked" pic with the sailor in the water is another example of at lease some sense of immediate enjoyment. George's enjoyment is in waiting for the long game to play out. He will feel fully justified in holding grudges and retaliating later. It is not necessary, or even wise, to reframe, explain or justify any activity of the users that were banned. It is also unwise to post things at anti which will be perceived as obvious distortions of what they perceive - all that does is undermine others' perceptions of credibility - things like reframing the virus/poll, or justifying the activity of the banned posters, or even answering Georgie's taunts towards Lou - all that will result is a loss of perceived credibility. On the other hand, continued presence, sensible, and even confrontational dialog (that is not personally insulting) will convey the message much further (and will prompt much less personal retaliation). It is already becoming more evident that 1904, is a disrupter. (His continued presence interests me, and seems indicative of his collusion with the anti admins.) 1904 is listed on this (PP) website as Polygraph Academy of South Africa
Contact: Cliff Coetzee 3/9 Glen Austin, Midrand
Johannesburg, Gauteng, South Africa
1683
Phone: 011 3143725
Fax: 011 3143372 he is also Gizmo (and others) and uses this email: Russell Bertrand [lieguys@hotmail.com] More and more people are simply ignoring 1904. He's a cunning manipulator, and enjoys duping others. He might be prone to boredom too. If so, then I predict that he will become more disruptive as more people ignore him. r [This message has been edited by rnelson (edited 10-29-2007).] IP: Logged |
stat
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 09:37 AM
As always, I agree with Ray 95%. The remaining disagreement is with Ray's prudence. I read again the over 200 posts I have written as both palerider and Paradiddle---and I am not ashamed of what I wrote. My religious affiliation does not view profanity as sacrilige per se, and I belive that the virus poll get's at the very heart of the critical thinking errors of George Maschke. He made the rare mistake, and I believe his self percieved integrity will overcome his venom---but like Ray said, he will get his revenge. I believe that GM will continue to fish every negative aspect of our examiners and our activities, regardless of whether we handle him with care. I further believe that with enough posters of varying persona, any given examiner can speak for themselves rather than the field as whole in most cases given a degree of decorum. Example is Barry's chaplain remarks. He is the antithesis of my style, and I love it. We need to show diversity with unity as it promotes strength. I also disagree that we should completely surrender to the labels of troll or malevolent tresspasser----as Lou's Studebaker remarks were nothing to be ashamed of. Incidentally, I really did not know for certain that Studebaker was Lou at the time.
In the scriptural sense, I believe that George is the Raven (fowl[unclean]) that delivers food during the famine-----we can use his lemons for lemonaide. [This message has been edited by stat (edited 10-29-2007).] IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 10:20 AM
well said stat,I've enjoyed watching your persistence at anti. Out of fairness to Gino, I though his remarks to Skip Webb, regarding the APA response to the wizard of OZ degree problems were interesting. I'm not willing to give him that publicly.
r
------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964) IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 10:48 AM
How do we know 1904 is the user of lieguys@hotmail.com?It was "lieguys" who sent me the harassing email. IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 11:11 AM
I recall the email posted here from "Russell Bertrand."For some reason, I was recalling it was to an examiner in FL who claimed the ability to detect pharmaceutical or drug use in a poly. Following the outing, 1904/Gizmo has sent me email from that address - closed/signed/typed with those names. He has also sent me email closed with the name Cliff. Eric has indicated to me that Cliff is from South Africa - then google.com brought a link in SA and the info at this site. r
------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964) IP: Logged |
stat
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 12:13 PM
One thing I've learned is that like the field of polygraph and the behaviors of many sex offenders, some things don't make sense---and if you spend too much effort looking for the sense, you miss the music. I know that George is a classic grad school activist----he is desperate to appear judicious and inhuman in his ability to pierce preconceptions and be a voice of measured wisdom----but he is exactly the opposite. He equates the credibility of his cause to his calmness---but behind the scenes he is all a blustering flurry---running, phoning, emailing, mailing. He really has no apparent life. If I had to guess, he is a court appointed Netherlands Gov translator who only works as needed (very part time)---or some other job that is flexible enough to well....not really work at all. His time and resources don't add up. Ray is right, like a celebrity actor, he has fused his public image with his self image. He is in his mind "Georgie"----the guy who he can't seem to satisfy what picture angle can best capture his largess---as in his mind he is much more striking than the ferrat faced, lipless, bespectacled little bald stutterer.
Nothing but death will stop him. And he will be replaced with worse I am sure.[This message has been edited by stat (edited 10-29-2007).] IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 12:29 PM
Neither "Cliff" nor his "school" is listed on the Polygraph Association of South Africa's (PASA) website. It's not a school that is accredited by the APA or the PASA.IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 12:33 PM
No such person on the South African Professional Polygraph Association (SAPPA) directory either. (Both associations are listed in the PP association directory.)[This message has been edited by Barry C (edited 10-29-2007).] IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 12:37 PM
Read the last two lines on this page:
http://www.corporatetraining.co.za/news4.htm
IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 12:40 PM
And here's info on the book:
http://www.newafricabooks.co.za/books_detail.asp?ID=62 Whoever "Cliff" is, he's co-authored a book and claims to be a licensed polygraph examiner. Why doesn't he belong to one of SA's associations? IP: Logged |
stat
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 12:45 PM
Cliff is retired.IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 12:47 PM
And now he is part of the anti crowd? Why is his "school" still listed?It looks like his book is on statement analysis - stolen from Sapir it appears:
http://www.carteblanche.co.za/Display/Display.asp?Id=1430 IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 12:53 PM
Barry,I just sent you an email with these links. and two screenshots of the webpages with Cliff's info.
http://www.pavsa.co.za/memlist.htm
http://www.polygraphplace.com/docs/schools.htm
r
------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964) IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 12:59 PM
He's been taunting me with this... quote:
RAT RIDDLEJamaican Johnny caused me to wonder so
I packed my nap sack and cont'd to wander
to places and saw traces o' things one warn't
supposed to see
In the way were walls 'n some were very high
others were low and I passed them by
There were fires too
some were hot
but by and by I getted
what I went to got
My journey took me wide and far
never on sand and never on tar
I got to a place, a corner bar
'twas a bar in a clever land
The door was open and the menu was grand
I drank from a gaurd an it was good
but I never touched the food
Contn'd going wests and easts
to find the rest of Judas' priests,
them who liked the outers leasts
There were non in Portugal
there were non in Spain
There was one, not in the cuntryside
but a bit more 'Main'
He pushed a 'barrow' and his head was narrow
how could he be, in the middle of a 'sea'
The journey ends now
I've given you three.
sent to me by Russell Bertrand [lieguys@hotmail.com] on 10/25/07
IP: Logged |
stat
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 01:37 PM
Transferred topic to seperate thread
[This message has been edited by stat (edited 10-29-2007).][This message has been edited by stat (edited 10-29-2007).] IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 01:37 PM
Your query has generated the following reply:-
Search on pavsa (.co.za)
Match: One
Domain: pavsa.co.za Accounting info....
Date |Type| Cost |Invoices are E-Mail to....|Paid Date |ICnt| TrkNo |Billing Info
2005-05-06| N | 100.00|accounts@liveqgroup.com |2005-06-09| 2 | 448378|Live Q Website Designing
2006-06-05| R | 50.00|accounts@liveqgroup.com |2006-08-28| 3 | 593197|Live Q Website Designing
2007-06-01| R | 50.00|accounts@liveqgroup.com |2007-09-11| 4 | 770719|Live Q Website Designing
Flashing RED indicates that payment has not been received - please
confirm with the UniForum SA accounting department, accounts@co.za, should this
not be according to your records. You have been sent 0 invoices/statements.
0a. lastupdate : 2005-05-06 18:36:21+02
0b. emailsource : joanne@liveq.co.za
0c. emailposted : Fri, 6 May 2005 13:14:48 +0200
0d. emailsubject : New Registration : pavsa.co.za
0g. historycount : 1
0h. invoiceno : 448378
0i. contracttype : NEW
0j. rcsversion : $Revision: 1.116 $ $Date: 2005/03/31 17:56:52 $
1a. domain : pavsa.co.za
1b. action : N
2a. registrant : Clifton Coetzee
2b. registrantpostaladdress: c/o P.O. Box 1666, Bromhof, 2154
2c. registrantstreetaddress: c/o 18 Island Cove Crescent, Bromhof,
2d. amount : 100.00
2e. paymenttype : I
2f. billingaccount : Live Q Website Designing
2g. billingemail : accounts@liveqgroup.com
2i. invoiceaddress : P.O.Box 1666, Bromhof, 2154
2j. registrantphone : 0117928958
2k. registrantfax : 0117921652
2l. registrantemail : joanne@liveq.co.za
2n. vat : 4630187708
3a. operationaldate : 2005/05/06 18:36:21
3b. cname :
3c. cnamesub1 :
3d. cnamesub2 :
4a. admin : Harverson, Joanne
4b. admintitle : Member
4c. admincompany : Live Q Website Designing CC
4d. adminpostaladdr : P.O. Box 1666, Bromhof, 2154
4e. adminphone : 0117928958
4f. adminfax : 0117921652
4g. adminemail : joanne@liveq.co.za
4h. adminnic :
5a. tec : Harverson, Joanne
5b. tectitle : Member
5c. teccompany : Live Q Website Designing CC
5d. tecpostaladdr : P.O. Box 1666, Bromhof, 2154
5e. tecphone : 0117928958
5f. tecfax : 0117921652
5g. tecemail : joanne@liveq.co.za
5h. tecnic :
6a. primnsfqdn : ns1.redi.co.za
6b. primnsip : 196.22.212.131
6c. primnsipv6 :
6e. secns1fqdn : ns2.redi.co.za
6f. secns1ip : 196.22.220.27
6g. secns1ipv6 :
6i. secns2fqdn :
6j. secns2ip :
6k. secns2ipv6 :
6m. secns3fqdn :
6n. secns3ip :
6o. secns3ipv6 :
6q. secns4fqdn :
6r. secns4ip :
6s. secns4ipv6 :
8a. netblock1start :
8b. netblock1end :
8c. netblock2start :
8d. netblock2end :
8e. netblock3start :
8f. netblock3end :
9a. description1 :
9b. description2 :
9c. description3 :
9d. description4 :
9e. description5 :
9f. description6 : IP: Logged |
stat
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 01:48 PM
That looks like a utility company bill----what is all that stuff Barry? IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 01:57 PM
Look at 2a. Cliff owns the website for the assoc Ray listed. Interesting... IP: Logged |
Taylor
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 03:20 PM
Before more comments are made, is Cliff banned from the examiners side of PP?IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 03:49 PM
So it seems Cliff is to SA what Grogan is to CA/US.Donna, If Cliff is here, then he's been here all along. That is our problem. Its possible he's not here, and there was another route to the info that was outed. It would be great to know more. Ralph has indicated we can scour the logs for lurkers. The dates are 10/16 to 10/21. ------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964) IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 03:50 PM
So it seems Cliff is to SA what Grogan is to CA/US.Donna, If Cliff is here, then he's been here all along. That is our problem. Its possible he's not here, and there was another route to the info that was outed. It would be great to know more. Ralph has indicated we can scour the logs for lurkers. The dates are 10/16 to 10/21. ------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964) IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 05:27 PM
Has anyone ever heard of the outcome of this mess? quote:
SA fraud investigator accused of plagiarism By Lynne Altenroxel Alleged deception in a book - somewhat ironically about uncovering deception - is at the centre of a spat between two top forensic investigators. The recently published book, Truth Extraction: How to Read Between the Lines, is described as "an essential tool for all to whom truth matters" and carries the endorsement of Carte Blanche TV personalities George Mazarakis and Derek Watts. It is co-authored by communications expert Malcolm Russell, formerly of Highveld Stereo and Radio 702. But it is the second co-author, South African fraud investigator Clifton "Cliff" Coetzee, who stands accused of plagiarising the work of his American colleague, Nathan Gordon. Gordon lodged a case of fraud against Coetzee
Gordon has trained intelligence agencies around the world and won a medal in 1999 for his role in solving a 14-year-old murder mystery in the United States. He has accused Coetzee of lifting a copyrighted 16-page questionnaire handed out at an eight-week course he presented in 1998 in Johannesburg, which Coetzee attended. This month, Gordon lodged a case of fraud against Coetzee at the Commercial Crime Unit in Johannesburg. Coetzee, in turn, has lodged a defamation action against Gordon after Gordon raised the plagiarism accusations at a public meeting of the Polygraph Association of Southern Africa, of which both are members. Association president John Roberts has confirmed that his organisation is aware of the plagiarism allegations, but said they were awaiting the outcome of the court case before making a decision about how to deal with it. 'That questionnaire has been around for the past 20 years'
Coetzee denies that the questionnaire was plagiarised from the course. He says it is similar to a public document which is two decades old. "He (Gordon) didn't devise it. That questionnaire has been around for the past 20 years," said Coetzee. Star Published on the Web by IOL on 2001-02-27 20:25:07
© Independent Online 2005. All rights reserved. IOL publishes this article in good faith but is not liable for any loss or damage caused by reliance on the information it contains.
r ------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964) IP: Logged |
detector
Administrator
|
posted 10-29-2007 06:47 PM
Hello everyone,Sorry for the delay in responding to the posts that reference some info from me, I've been dealing with server issues for 4 days that took priority, I'm sick and also went out of town...sigh. anyway, I banned 'namcush' from posting several days ago. that user was never given access to the private forum. I also did not find the name cliff or the lieguys@hotmail.com email address in any of my past 'approved' private examiners, so I don't think he was ever in the private side. I have decided to install a new BB. In fact, just before my server issues, I had installed it and was preparing to set it up. I have not worked out all the details, but I'm hoping to rope Raymond and/or Barry into taking the reigns of administrating/monitoring the private side of this new bulletin board. Access will be invitation only and will trickle down so that we at least have "I know this examiner personally and to the best of my knowledge they aren't motivated in infiltrating us for malevolent purposes" Raymond, Barry...you guys up for more responsibility with no extra pay? ------------------
Ralph Hilliard
PolygraphPlace Owner & Operator Be sure to visit our new store for all things Polygraph Related
http://store.polygraphplace.com IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 06:52 PM
I'm in.Thanks for the update. r ------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964) IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 06:56 PM
Sure, I'm up for it. Anything for the good of the cause - well, almost anything.How many email domains do you have from SA? IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 07:05 PM
Ralph, We can't thank you enough for providing the forum. We have all learned things, made some friends, and and improved our sense of professional community across different regions as a result of your services here. The importance of that cannot be underestimated. Its might even be helpful to the atmosphere that this forum is a bit separate from APA. In Colorado, we have a listserve for sex offender treatment providers, and it grossly underused - because of the sense of professional competition/vulnerability, and the perception of some administrative hierarchy from the state board (that does change the way people think about things.) This community has been free to engage in all kinds of interesting and important discussion - with little professional vulnerability, out side of the occasional mole. r ------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964) IP: Logged |
stat
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 07:21 PM
Might I suggest anonymity for everyone's new usernames?(lol)IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 07:43 PM
You all were "anonymous" at the anti site, and you were all easy to figure out. At this rate, how could any of us be anonymous?IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-29-2007 07:51 PM
What have I learned? They are BORING! They only have a couple catch phrases (I like Ray's "mantra" as it's true), and they've never really thought them through. I don't know how much more I can take!The flip side is if George et al didn't exist, we'd have to create them. After all, how many DI criminals show up hoping George has given them what they need to pull the wool over our eyes? IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-30-2007 05:33 PM
For some reason I couldn't log in (here) today at work. When I went to the anti site, I couldn't help but respond to 1904, whoever he is. I've been ignoring him for the most part since he's such a dope. You've heard the expression, "Give'em enough rope and he'll hang himself" haven't you? Well that bozo brings his own rope. Apparently he misses the beatings he took as Gizmo.I don't understand why George lets him post. Thankfully he does though. I think the intellectually bankrupt 1904 has made himself the poster child for the anti site, and they are losing credibility day by day as a result. Apparently, he's still upset over the beatings he took as Gizmo. I just hoped to get a chance to point out their inconsistent logic and spare some of the truthful their demise. I just have to say "hello" and 1904 winds himself up and bloviates. Does anybody know why he's so obnoxious? He must have been a lousy examiner to have such a bad feeling about polygraph, or he's just a scammer. If he is "Cliff," he badmouths polygraph and yet owns the website (above) that promotes polygraph, and of all things, CVSA. He's just full of integrity isn't he? Did anybody track down Nate on the plagiarism issue yet? Okay, enough entertainment here for one day. Like a bad accident, I'm going to have to go see which foot he's put in his mouth now. IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
|
posted 10-30-2007 05:45 PM
Barry,Like I have always said, George's site is great for us. It is like having the other team's playbook two weeks before the Superbowl! Ted IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-30-2007 06:02 PM
1904/Cliff/Gizmo/Schmuyle/Samuel Goldenberg (whomever)calls himself poly-agnostic He claims to have run a successful polygraph business in SA for years. SA, is reportedly a ruthless business environment. If he was successful, that would tell you about his capabilities. His allegiance is only to himself. r ------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964) IP: Logged |
sackett
Moderator
|
posted 10-31-2007 09:42 AM
Ralph,when you set this new BB up, are you going to invite me and Ted to play, or, is the new board only for "civilized" examiners...lol Jim IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
|
posted 10-31-2007 09:47 AM
Jim,I am not uncivilized....I am a "Rouge Examiner"....... Ted IP: Logged |
sackett
Moderator
|
posted 10-31-2007 11:04 AM
Ted,so what you're saying is you're a "cosmetic examiner." That explains A LOT!!! LOL/LOL/LOL
Jim
IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-31-2007 11:28 AM
another photoshop op?IP: Logged |
Ted Todd
Member
|
posted 10-31-2007 12:45 PM
Fine boys, kick a man who has been outed!Ted IP: Logged |
Barry C
Member
|
posted 10-31-2007 01:13 PM
And that's the problem with spell check....Maybe you could be a rogue rouge examiner? IP: Logged |
rnelson
Member
|
posted 10-31-2007 01:20 PM
lessee now,Rogue, rouge, outed... sounds like a pirate to me. **launches photoshop** ------------------
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964) [This message has been edited by rnelson (edited 10-31-2007).] IP: Logged |
sackett
Moderator
|
posted 10-31-2007 01:55 PM
So tell me Ted, what are going tonight as, a rosey cheeked California polygraph examiner...? Ya'll so funny!!!
Jim
IP: Logged | |
Polygraph Place Bulletin Board
